Im not sure the west needs to stop eating meat as much as I think Americans should ask whether they think any meat product will be safe to consume once regulations are removed. Im looking at going entirely plant based because of this.
Impossible to get recommended essential nutrients like choline eating a plant based diet, of course it’s going to be attacked
I guess I’m a ghost, having been vegan for so long. If this is the afterlife, people like you must be why it’s Hell, as you’re spreading egg industry misinformation about choline - a substance which, in those animal-based regular concentrated doses, is correlated with a greater risk of cancers 1 2 3. Also heart disease.
Despite large parts of the population being under the “adequate intake”, a common worry for choline deficiency is about dementia. If plants were so low in choline, you’d expect AD to be a big issue for those who ate more plant-based (as a spectrum) than animal-based food.
Here’s a trial with an intervention of:
This lifestyle intervention includes (1) a whole foods, minimally processed plant-based diet low in harmful fats and low in refined carbohydrates and sweeteners with selected supplements; (2) moderate exercise; (3) stress management techniques; and (4) support groups.
and the conclusion:
in persons with mild cognitive impairment or early dementia due to Alzheimer’s disease, comprehensive lifestyle changes may improve cognition and function in several standard measures after 20 weeks.
Too short? Perhaps something on the Mediterranean diet, which is a heavily plant-based diet (if you don’t know what the MD score is, look it up):
We used Cox proportional hazard regression models to explore the associations between MedDiet adherence, defined using two different scores (Mediterranean Diet Adherence Screener [MEDAS] continuous and Mediterranean diet Pyramid [PYRAMID] scores), and incident all-cause dementia risk in 60,298 participants from UK Biobank, followed for an average 9.1 years. The interaction between diet and polygenic risk for dementia was also tested.
…
In this large population-based prospective cohort study, higher adherence to a MedDiet was associated with reduced dementia risk.
Is the MD bad in this way?
Results: Participants’ diets were analyzed (MDP n = 15, CHD n = 13). The MDP (n = 10, 67%) achieved a high level of adherence (MDSS score between 16 and 24) vs. CHD (n = 3), (p = 0.030). HEI-2015 significantly increased from baseline to week 12 (p = 0.007) in the MDP and was significantly higher at week 12 compared to the CHD (p = 0.0001). The SIBDQ (bowel domain) showed reductions in the passage of large amounts of gas (p = 0.01) and improvements in tenesmus (p = 0.03) in the MDP. Despite enhanced diet quality and adherence in the MDP, females had inadequate intakes of calcium, iron, vitamin D, vitamin E, and choline and males had inadequate intakes of fiber, vitamin D, vitamin E, and choline. No adverse events were reported.
You’ll find that studies on dementia and diets tend to recommend more plant-centered diets.
Hmmmm… if you actually check the literature for choline, it’s an “Adequate Intake” recommendation, not an RDA. There isn’t enough data for it.
In most of the population groups considered, the average choline intake was found to be below the AI set in 1998 by the IOM in the USA. Given the definition of AI, no conclusion can be drawn regarding the adequacy of choline intake.
Too long, didn’t read. I have a medical condition that requires a higher intake of choline or trimethylglycine than the advised 550mg.
Failure to do so makes me feel terrible, get weak and have dangerously low cholesterol.
Given the advised quantity is impossible to achive, I’d never have a chance so you can spare the vegan preaching
I also have medical and economic issues that make it unreasonable to be completely vegan, but that doesn’t mean the world shouldn’t shift towards it. Factory farming isn’t a practice needed to help my conditions, and I doubt you benefit from it either. They could probably use humane and sustainable methods to provide plenty of meat/dairy for medical purposes and pet foods.
And besides, according to this chart, soybeans have higher choline content than most meats. Google also says there’s a shitton of trimethylglycine in wheat. And both come in supplement form. (Not sure how they make them though, so maybe not vegan.)
Coeliac disease and a broken folate cycle pretty much makes it impossible.
By the chart, the average male would need to consume about 3 cups of soybeans per day? I’d probably be up for double that. If it’s even possible to eat 6 cups of soy bean per day, you’d likely soon end up with copper toxicity or toxic amounts of some metals if your gut can even digest it. In addition to all the other balanced food you’d have to eat, would be unsustainable.
We don’t have factory farming here
Factory farming exists pretty much everywhere though. If just 50% of people reduced their meat intake to an occasional treat, that would go a long way to reducing suffering, improving sustainability, and increasing the availability and affordability of vegan products. That doesn’t mean that any given individual needs to be vegan, just that encouraging widespread veganism is beneficial to everyone.
I’m sorry if my post came off as “Just eat s bunch of soy beans,” because that isn’t what I meant. Rather, it seems viable to eat a lot of plants and supplement with animal products where needed, especially given that there’s also a pill form.
Also I don’t think the 550mg figure is meant to be a recommended minimum intake, but rather a figure where it’s impossible to be deficient. It’s my understanding that a minimum intake of choline hasn’t been established. From Wikipedia:
Insufficient data is available to establish an estimated average requirement (EAR) for choline, so the Food and Nutrition Board established adequate intakes (AIs). For adults, the AI for choline was set at 550 mg/day for men and 425 mg/day for women. These values have been shown to prevent hepatic alteration in men. However, the study used to derive these values did not evaluate whether less choline would be effective, as researchers only compared a choline-free diet to a diet containing 550 mg of choline per day. From this, the AIs for children and adolescents were extrapolated.
Twelve surveys undertaken in 9 EU countries between 2000 and 2011 estimated choline intake of adults in these countries to be 269–468 milligrams per day. Intake was 269–444 mg/day in adult women and 332–468 mg/day in adult men.
What is this condition you have?
As discussed in the chart link in the comment above, a genetically broken folate cycle requires high quantities of choline and trimethylglycine
If you didn’t have this condition, then would you make the switch?
The attacks come from an emotional, not logical place. Maybe someone can help me understand why there is such a strong reaction to even mentioning the word “vegan” among some folk.
I think there is this tension whenever a moral norm is changing in society. Vegans are telling people something is worthy of dignity and respect that currently isn’t being granted that status. The cohort of vegans is growing. People don’t like to be made out to be unethical for something they never even considered could be unethical.
this process is how ethics comes to be—a new ideal slowly permeates society as more people adopt it and eventually we decide “cannibalism is unethical” (or whatever) is a general rule and teach that to our children who hopefully perpetuate the rules that ring true for them.
I don’t know for sure, either, but if I had to guess then it has something to do with A. being vegan can be a marker of other progressive beliefs, or perhaps more significantly, B. the consumption of meat is glorified as a traditionally masculine trait
https://vegfaqs.com/vegan-food-sources-choline/
There are plant sources of choline
Based on your source, to get enough for a male adult, you’d need to eat 700 grams of flax seeds per day. Flax seeds are the richest source of choline in the vegan world
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Guessing you used this page for that?
https://tools.myfooddata.com/nutrient-ranking-tool/Choline/Nuts-and-Seeds/Highest
Try adding the “Vegan” option, and it’ll list 91 food types that contain more choline by weight
Now it’s only 7 CUPS of kidney beans PER DAY
